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So we decided that we have this voice in our head all the time. This voice is, of course, our own.
I think itis there because that'sthe way our brains are wired. It's just how our minds work. Dadnerd thinks there's more to it than that. Either way, what do we say to ourselves and why do we say it?
Here is what dadnerd said today:
"I think this process of inward chatter is going on for a reason, and there
is a big clue there. Are we constantly defining ourselves? We have an image
of ourselves, that we foster all day long. Some of it is based on other
people's opinion of who we are. We like those that flatter, avoid those that
don't. We have an image, and it needs to be nurtured throughout the day,
everyday. Our brains use images and words, to form an opinion about
ourselves. We want to be accepted so much. Survival sometimes depends on it.
But this goes beyond survival. Does the brain need order to function? Are we
using thought, with its images and words, to create order in our brains? If
our brains are using thought as a source of security, then we need to
examine the whole process of thinking.
"If we are using thought to create a solid image of ourselves, to create
security, then it is very important we look at this.
We do feel separate and distinct. You are there, I'm over here. This
constant self, or perception of self is very reassuring. But is it so solid?
Would it be so solid if we quit chattering? Does it require maintenance,
moment after moment? Does our brain need this supposed solid image we
constantly maintain, for order and sanity?"
At this point, I will insert something that farbel said.
"i too have this constant chatter with self going on. once and only once i silenced it for maybe a half an hour after being taught how by a buddhist monk in woodstock, Vt. actually, i didn't so much silence it as replace it with counting my breaths. the key, though, was to let each thought come and then immediately go without dwelling on it at all. i understand that with practice, this can be done without the artificial aid of counting. the results of my experiment were quite wonderful, but i must have been frightened also, because i have never done it again."
Back to dadnerd.
"This watching I mentioned on the outset of this discussion, it is like
meditation. Did you notice that if you are aware, thoughts automatically slow
down? This may be real meditation, a state of awareness, where all one's
energy is in attention. Not repeating a mantra, or mesmerizing the brain by
repetition. Just observation, with all your senses.
"And in that state of attention, we are not really there, you see. All our
desires and wants are absent for the time being. There is just this looking
intensely at the sky, or buildings or other people. Loneliness may be a form
of greed and desire. We want more. Entertainment, or a fulfilling personal
life, you name it. In this state of attention you are not asking for
anything. Of course we have to take care of ourselves, but not to such a
degree that we become neurotic.
"I think the best way to discuss thinking and the nature of it, is to include
this awareness. They may be like dark and light, that is, where one is, the
other is not."
Okay. Self-image. Internal order. Desire. There are a few ideas.
What are the issues that are relevant to this particulare pursuit of knowledge?
What are the issues that are related to you and your lonliness?
I think itis there because that'sthe way our brains are wired. It's just how our minds work. Dadnerd thinks there's more to it than that. Either way, what do we say to ourselves and why do we say it?
Here is what dadnerd said today:
"I think this process of inward chatter is going on for a reason, and there
is a big clue there. Are we constantly defining ourselves? We have an image
of ourselves, that we foster all day long. Some of it is based on other
people's opinion of who we are. We like those that flatter, avoid those that
don't. We have an image, and it needs to be nurtured throughout the day,
everyday. Our brains use images and words, to form an opinion about
ourselves. We want to be accepted so much. Survival sometimes depends on it.
But this goes beyond survival. Does the brain need order to function? Are we
using thought, with its images and words, to create order in our brains? If
our brains are using thought as a source of security, then we need to
examine the whole process of thinking.
"If we are using thought to create a solid image of ourselves, to create
security, then it is very important we look at this.
We do feel separate and distinct. You are there, I'm over here. This
constant self, or perception of self is very reassuring. But is it so solid?
Would it be so solid if we quit chattering? Does it require maintenance,
moment after moment? Does our brain need this supposed solid image we
constantly maintain, for order and sanity?"
At this point, I will insert something that farbel said.
"i too have this constant chatter with self going on. once and only once i silenced it for maybe a half an hour after being taught how by a buddhist monk in woodstock, Vt. actually, i didn't so much silence it as replace it with counting my breaths. the key, though, was to let each thought come and then immediately go without dwelling on it at all. i understand that with practice, this can be done without the artificial aid of counting. the results of my experiment were quite wonderful, but i must have been frightened also, because i have never done it again."
Back to dadnerd.
"This watching I mentioned on the outset of this discussion, it is like
meditation. Did you notice that if you are aware, thoughts automatically slow
down? This may be real meditation, a state of awareness, where all one's
energy is in attention. Not repeating a mantra, or mesmerizing the brain by
repetition. Just observation, with all your senses.
"And in that state of attention, we are not really there, you see. All our
desires and wants are absent for the time being. There is just this looking
intensely at the sky, or buildings or other people. Loneliness may be a form
of greed and desire. We want more. Entertainment, or a fulfilling personal
life, you name it. In this state of attention you are not asking for
anything. Of course we have to take care of ourselves, but not to such a
degree that we become neurotic.
"I think the best way to discuss thinking and the nature of it, is to include
this awareness. They may be like dark and light, that is, where one is, the
other is not."
Okay. Self-image. Internal order. Desire. There are a few ideas.
What are the issues that are relevant to this particulare pursuit of knowledge?
What are the issues that are related to you and your lonliness?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
and...
Date: 2000-12-10 10:09 pm (UTC)From:A friend of mine said in response, "in other words, we haven't discovered all this stuff about ourselves, and then we go and bring someone else into the mess!...like , make yourself at home, just push all those warped feelings out of the way and sit down..."
Re: and...
Date: 2000-12-10 10:19 pm (UTC)From:Re: and...
Date: 2000-12-11 01:46 pm (UTC)From:You know there is supposed to be something there, but you just can't find it. You're alone.
Re: and...
Date: 2000-12-11 04:32 pm (UTC)From:I guess I'm lucky, because right after I leave close friends, I feel a fullness rather than an emptiness. I feel like the love has been shared, and I'm happy. The essence of the friendship sustains me for a long time.
((((((((((freekee))))))))))
inner chatter
Date: 2000-12-10 10:21 pm (UTC)From:I know what farbel is talking about, too; those moments when the inner chatter stops completely. I can do that but usually it scares me when it happens, because without my words i often wonder if i'm still alive.
Incidentally, I don't believe that we actually do have separate identities. I think that's a construct our minds make in order to understand what we perceive. I think we're all part of a broader consciousness that we can't really perceive except at rare instances in our lives. Whether there's any practical significance to this larger consciousness, however, is highly debatable.
Re: inner chatter
Date: 2000-12-11 06:01 am (UTC)From:Re: inner chatter
Date: 2000-12-11 08:35 am (UTC)From:Re: inner chatter
Date: 2000-12-11 12:41 pm (UTC)From:State of awareness
Date: 2000-12-10 10:44 pm (UTC)From:Anyway, I was just thinking about dadnerd's comments on a true meditative state - being fully attentive, in the moment, wholly aware. It's losing or transcending your Self completely. Although it's possible to learn how to achieve that awareness, with discipline and practice, it also can simply happen - for example when you're blown away by some utterly wondrous experience with Nature, great sex, incredible music, breathtaking art, outstanding theater or film productions, the birth of a baby, the open face of a child, etc. etc. Maybe it is the experiencing of just such moments that causes Desire - for more?
Hmm, that isn't even what I started out to write. Amazing how the act of writing works out your thoughts. What I was *going* to say was that I remember losing my Self to awareness and attentiveness when I smoked marijuana. But, in that sense it sometimes made me quite nervous. (Whoa, how much time just passed? How long was I thinking about that musical chord? What happened to all those corn chips, anyway? Did I eat them all and not even notice? Was someone talking to me? Did I talk back? Aiyeee!)
And one more thing - I took Transcendental Meditation in the mid 70's but never reached that transcendent meditative state because repeating my mantra relaxed me so much that I always fell asleep, every time (even then I was sleep deprived). To this day, if for some reason I can't sleep (a rarity for me), I call up my mantra and it works every time - probably because it makes me stop my internal chatter.
Hope I gave you a few points to ponder.
no subject
Date: 2000-12-11 05:00 am (UTC)From:Pot paranoia
Date: 2000-12-11 09:32 am (UTC)From:Whorlpool alluded to the feeling by saying that he gets scared when he loses himself because without words he wonders if he's alive. He relies on being able to define his experience through words. (I hope I paraphrased that ok!) I think that's true for many of us.
But I'm at work - I shouldn't be in LJ at all!
defining
Date: 2000-12-11 10:32 am (UTC)From:At least, I thought that was why. If I don't need to tell others, do I care, myself? Is that one of my needs? To tell others? Do I define myself by others' images of me? I don't think so. Why do I need to tell? It probably has more to do with defining the events. That is, once I've mad a story out of it, I need to share it.
Re: Pot paranoia
Date: 2000-12-11 03:24 pm (UTC)From:Selflessness and loneliness
Date: 2000-12-11 10:42 am (UTC)From:This raises many questions in my mind, but here are just a few. First, is this tendency for us to share simply proof of the validity of the quote: "pain shared is halved, joy shared is doubled"? Do we tend to need to validate our experiences by sharing them? Is that why we need to express ourselves through words, writing, art? Is it why we seek community? Also, do most of us tend to fixate on the negative and miss appreciating the positive? Finally, am I starting to post too much here? ;)
are you posting too much?
Date: 2000-12-11 01:41 pm (UTC)From:No such thing as too much -)
Date: 2000-12-11 07:01 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)I can relate to this.
Seren said, "Although it's possible to learn how to achieve that awareness, with discipline and practice, it also can simply happen - for example when you're blown away by some utterly wondrous experience with Nature, great sex, incredible music, breathtaking art, outstanding theater or film productions, the birth of a baby, the open face of a child, etc. etc. Maybe it is the experiencing of just such moments that causes Desire - for more?
I think the above, by Serendipity, has hit on something we may want to pursue.
Okay, I have something.
We experience something, some pleasurable event. All the things listed above, are pleasurable, right? While occuring, it was in the moment, you know in the present. Say we are listening to incredible music. If we are quiet, or on pot, hehe, we are transported and absorbed in that music. We also record the event, so to speak, and have a memory of it. Why? Because we can. Later we find ourselves singing along to that music. We have a memory of it. It was pleasurable and we remember the pleasure, in the form of singing. So there we are doing something mundane, and find ourselves singing this song. (I'm keeping it simple) What we are doing is boring, and we recall the catchy tune, and find ourselves escaping to that pleasure.
This is so interesting to me. We have the memory of it, and we are the memory.
What is the drive to repeat that song? Where is this energy coming from? Why arent we just going about our business, looking listening, watching? Instead there is this demand to have pleasure. Pleasant thoughts, pleasant people around, who are not beligerent, annoying, plesant surroundings. We've built a civilization on this. Everyone on the planet is doing this, only we Americans do it better.
Is this one of the driving forces in our conscousness? And explains some of the energy behind the incessant chatter. We don't chatter when we are overwhelmed by tremendous pleasure. We are silenced, quite often. Does anyone do their taxes while they are having sex? Well, accountants don't count here.
There is much to this. We start by questioning aloneness, or loneliness, and come to pursuing pleasure. As Whilpool and Farbel said, and I can verify, a brain that is silent is scary. That says so much right there, that is the key.
That time when I wrote that I faced death, it was just this. Sat down and rode the silence for a while. I was getting smaller and smaller, till there was just a dot of consciousness. This enormous expansion going on. I rode the fear too, that accompanies this missing self. Then the little dot call me, went out, and I faced the death of me. I should have rode that out too, but didn't . I never faced that kind of raw, death like fear. But it wasn't real death, just death of me.
So now there is this balance. When I see that *me*, getting too aggressive, I pull back some. Emphasis on the me, is counterproductive. We get along better if the me is pushed back some.
So an occupied mind, makes us feel safe? But isolates us too. Like prison is safe, in a way, but isolated.
There is no doubt we are all occupied this way, finding out why becomes more evasive, but I think we are making headway.
Re: are you posting too much?