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Recently, dadnerd and I began a dialogue about aloneness. Here’s where we’ve gone so far. Now I’m inviting all of you to join us. What do you think?
f
A few days ago you said to someone that if we can't be alone, there is a problem. Or something to that effect. Would you mind elaborating on what you meant, or why you said it?
d
The subject is so complex, and implies we understand the whole of our consciousness.
I don't know about you but I haven't had that big insight yet -)
Essentially, we set ourselves up for that feeling of being alone at a very deep level. By establishing and maintaining this separate self, we in fact isolate ourselves from others. Its the unfortunate side effect of Self. By defining ourselves as separate, we feel secure, that is, the brain has complete security.
Where real life is changing rapidly, from day to day, our so-called self is a constant. We therefore feel secure in chaos.
I've played with this idea and the brain will not let go of this sense of self. I tried getting to the core of it and there is nothing there. Its more like an activity of the brain. Incessant chatter all day long and at night during sleep, maintains this feeling that we are there. Try slowing down the process of thinking and see what happens, the little me shrinks right along with the chatter.
Now how to deal with this side effect of loneliness. Most occupy their time with distractions and interests. In a relationship it is most interesting. We are flattered, by someone attention. We no longer feel alone with that person. We haven't explored why we feel empty, and find ourselves in a relationship. Then all the trouble begins. The attachment, the jealousy, etc... Not to mention all the good times too, and the sharing and caring. Sex is here, along with children, possibly. But all along we still maintain our own identity and we are isolated. For many once the thrill of someone new dies down, they are back, discontent and feeling lonely.
f
I think what you're getting at in the first part is how we sabotage ourselves into being alone. You hint at a Zen-like need to be one with our mate, to remove ourselves, not only from the isolationism of self, but the conflict of jealousy.
What I've been more concerned with, is what makes us feel alone when we don't have anyone else to share our lives with. As you said, "We haven't explored why we feel empty."
Too many people are hung up on the standards of marriage, sex, buying a little house in the country, having kids, etc., when they don't understand why. I suppose that ignorance is bliss, if they are happy when they achieve these goals, but so many of these people tend to expect others to share these beliefs. From there, it is only a short guilt trip away to thinking that these standards really are standards, and any of them is fulfilling. Conversely, one should not turn away from these mythologized ideals simply because he doesn't want to buy into this false dream. These dreams are not necessarily false. They just don't apply everyone.
d
If you become aware of yourself and your thoughts, do you feel that you are ever present and always there? You, with your ideas thoughts opinions desires beliefs. Is there this feeling that you are always there? Thoughts change but you remain.
I would like to take this one step at a time If possible. I'm asking myself the same question, so both of us are traveling down the same road at the same time.
Do this tomorrow, throughout the day, if you remember it. See if you are there constantly, thinking to yourself etc..
This subject is so vital I think it deserves our attention.
f
How would I be able to tell?
d
Watch yourself. Its easy, and fun too. Just be aware of the activity of your mind. Is it chattering during the day or is there great amounts of quiet? And what is the nature of this thinking? My first question is, are we thinking all day long. The most logical question is, why do we do this? But first I want to know if you see yourself doing this. There may be a big clue here you see.
f
Okay.
Of course I'm always there. There is always some dialogue going on. Sometimes a conversation of sorts, sometimes an issuance of directions. I think it is always me who is forming these words. Even in full daydream mode, I don't believe I can get beyond the formation of words in my mind.
So I'm aware of my self. I am always in active control of my psyche.
Now, what are you getting at?
d
Yes good.
I wanted to move from fact to fact, if possible, and not indulge in speculation.
This whole process involves thinking, right? Thoughts born of memory. Now it gets a little tricky.
When you say "me", what or who is this "me"?
Is thought born of memory or, is thought memory?
You were thinking all day about this and so was I. Did you notice how hard it was to watch if for long?
Suddenly you become aware that you have been thinking. Could you follow it for a while? Could you watch yourself as if you had eyes in the back of your head looking through your head? Watch your thinking and talking to others, or did you get absorbed and lost in the thoughts? And only later noticed you were thinking?
Now my first question is, why do we do this (aside from the essential thoughts necessary for survival).
My question is why do we chatter like this. Does it make us feel like we are here? You know, alive.
You tell me. Do we feel alone if we don’t chatter to ourselves?
f
A few days ago you said to someone that if we can't be alone, there is a problem. Or something to that effect. Would you mind elaborating on what you meant, or why you said it?
d
The subject is so complex, and implies we understand the whole of our consciousness.
I don't know about you but I haven't had that big insight yet -)
Essentially, we set ourselves up for that feeling of being alone at a very deep level. By establishing and maintaining this separate self, we in fact isolate ourselves from others. Its the unfortunate side effect of Self. By defining ourselves as separate, we feel secure, that is, the brain has complete security.
Where real life is changing rapidly, from day to day, our so-called self is a constant. We therefore feel secure in chaos.
I've played with this idea and the brain will not let go of this sense of self. I tried getting to the core of it and there is nothing there. Its more like an activity of the brain. Incessant chatter all day long and at night during sleep, maintains this feeling that we are there. Try slowing down the process of thinking and see what happens, the little me shrinks right along with the chatter.
Now how to deal with this side effect of loneliness. Most occupy their time with distractions and interests. In a relationship it is most interesting. We are flattered, by someone attention. We no longer feel alone with that person. We haven't explored why we feel empty, and find ourselves in a relationship. Then all the trouble begins. The attachment, the jealousy, etc... Not to mention all the good times too, and the sharing and caring. Sex is here, along with children, possibly. But all along we still maintain our own identity and we are isolated. For many once the thrill of someone new dies down, they are back, discontent and feeling lonely.
f
I think what you're getting at in the first part is how we sabotage ourselves into being alone. You hint at a Zen-like need to be one with our mate, to remove ourselves, not only from the isolationism of self, but the conflict of jealousy.
What I've been more concerned with, is what makes us feel alone when we don't have anyone else to share our lives with. As you said, "We haven't explored why we feel empty."
Too many people are hung up on the standards of marriage, sex, buying a little house in the country, having kids, etc., when they don't understand why. I suppose that ignorance is bliss, if they are happy when they achieve these goals, but so many of these people tend to expect others to share these beliefs. From there, it is only a short guilt trip away to thinking that these standards really are standards, and any of them is fulfilling. Conversely, one should not turn away from these mythologized ideals simply because he doesn't want to buy into this false dream. These dreams are not necessarily false. They just don't apply everyone.
d
If you become aware of yourself and your thoughts, do you feel that you are ever present and always there? You, with your ideas thoughts opinions desires beliefs. Is there this feeling that you are always there? Thoughts change but you remain.
I would like to take this one step at a time If possible. I'm asking myself the same question, so both of us are traveling down the same road at the same time.
Do this tomorrow, throughout the day, if you remember it. See if you are there constantly, thinking to yourself etc..
This subject is so vital I think it deserves our attention.
f
How would I be able to tell?
d
Watch yourself. Its easy, and fun too. Just be aware of the activity of your mind. Is it chattering during the day or is there great amounts of quiet? And what is the nature of this thinking? My first question is, are we thinking all day long. The most logical question is, why do we do this? But first I want to know if you see yourself doing this. There may be a big clue here you see.
f
Okay.
Of course I'm always there. There is always some dialogue going on. Sometimes a conversation of sorts, sometimes an issuance of directions. I think it is always me who is forming these words. Even in full daydream mode, I don't believe I can get beyond the formation of words in my mind.
So I'm aware of my self. I am always in active control of my psyche.
Now, what are you getting at?
d
Yes good.
I wanted to move from fact to fact, if possible, and not indulge in speculation.
This whole process involves thinking, right? Thoughts born of memory. Now it gets a little tricky.
When you say "me", what or who is this "me"?
Is thought born of memory or, is thought memory?
You were thinking all day about this and so was I. Did you notice how hard it was to watch if for long?
Suddenly you become aware that you have been thinking. Could you follow it for a while? Could you watch yourself as if you had eyes in the back of your head looking through your head? Watch your thinking and talking to others, or did you get absorbed and lost in the thoughts? And only later noticed you were thinking?
Now my first question is, why do we do this (aside from the essential thoughts necessary for survival).
My question is why do we chatter like this. Does it make us feel like we are here? You know, alive.
You tell me. Do we feel alone if we don’t chatter to ourselves?
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no subject
Date: 2000-12-05 07:21 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)It may be something most people do not want to hear or discuss.
You know, sweep it under the carpet, so to speak.
I'm convinced that once it is brought out to the light of day the whole thing ceases to exist.
So the question is,
is this a boring subject, or am I afraid to look at it? Any advise someone gives me to overcome loneliness is almost useless. That is postponement of the problem and not a delving into it.
If we unravel it, and learn about it, the problem is over.
Dialogue is awesome. It implies no authority. But rather friends exploring something so vital, so fundamental we have to put aside our opinions and plunge in.
Since Freekee and I started this I have already had a shift in my understanding. And the word understanding is so inadequate here. This kind of seeing actually changes brains cells, hehe. Not just some clever cafeteria chatter to wile away the hours
alonliness
Date: 2000-12-05 08:35 pm (UTC)From:At best, that sort of thing can keep you going when you're in between relationships (or whatever your lonliness is about). But having a special someone to keep you from being lonely, still doesn't solve the problem of why you feel lonliness when you're alone. (I realize, of course, that most people don't really care as long as they aren't alone.)
wow
Date: 2000-12-05 07:48 pm (UTC)From:Re: wow
Date: 2000-12-05 08:26 pm (UTC)From:I've been thinking, tonight, that the chatter in my mind is a little unhealthy because I've been in such a hurry lately, that I haven't had time to relax and recharge. But I don't think that stopping (or ignoring) it like you did would help. We still need to continue the conversations, we just need to relax about it and think about whatever our mind takes us to, rather than what we *need* to be thinking of.
When we do that, we run into the real world aloneness problems.
Re: wow
Date: 2000-12-06 07:16 pm (UTC)From:back to our story...
Date: 2000-12-05 08:47 pm (UTC)From:The lowest level of thought is the truly instinctive. These thoughts don't even break the surface. We don't consciously decide how to take and action, we just do it.
So are there times we are operating purely on the subconscious, and aren't having any sort of dialog? I don't think so. We will fill in with something, won't we?
So in answer to dad's last question, "why do we chatter like this? Do we feel alone if we dont chatter to ourselves?" I'd say that we talk with ourselves because we have to. I don't think that we can stop. Nor that we should, if it were possible. And since this state of being is all we've ever known, how could we feel alone, or not alone based purely on what is going on with that dialogue?
Re: back to our story...
Date: 2000-12-06 03:27 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)Agreed for the moment there will be no forcing anything. No trying to stop thinking etc...
We are inquiring here and nothing more. If we say we have to do this or that, then we just reveal some desire. Chatter may be uncomfortable and boring and we may want to stop it. I played with zen too the counting of the breaths etc...
Here we are not controlling anything nor is anyone in control of this discussion. I love that hehe.
I personally want desperately to understand this factor of our being, and have no desire to shove it under the rug. By bringing it out in the open we can examine it, which is us, our lives. Not some abstract philosophy.
So I don't want to draw any conclusions. Let the facts we reveal do their thing, we can get out of the way if we have to. I don't want to color my inquiry with desire or wants.
I mean lets say we are having this dialague to get rid of loneliness, then we are starting off with an agenda. We want something.
Maybe this loneliness is the flip side of the coin. Something we have to endure as long as there is a separate self in operation. But my intent is to discover the very makeup of our minds, like good science, just the facts ma'am.
the difference is
Date: 2000-12-05 10:16 pm (UTC)From:alone is the presence of one's self.
lonely is the lack thereof.
:)
Re: the difference is
Date: 2000-12-06 05:06 am (UTC)From:clarification, maybe?
Date: 2000-12-06 10:30 am (UTC)From:Lonliness is not relating to one's company.
or expansion, maybe?
What do you think, you gypsy girl?
no subject
Date: 2000-12-06 07:05 am (UTC)From:You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. - Wayne Dyer
It's one of those wonderful synchronicities that seem to happen for me, that you two are having this discussion and it was brought to my attention. I posted something in my journal a few days ago that has a bit to do with this.
I don't completely agree with that quote above. I like myself, but still find myself feeling lonely at times. I have also experienced what you mentioned about being busy helping only temporarily. I don't mind my brain chatter for the most part, but there are times when it gets stuck on something and I feel as if I need a break from it. It'll feel like I'm obsessing about something. If I could learn the skill of turning off the chatter long enough to relax and "regroup" myself, so to speak, then it would go a long way toward resolving whatever my current problem is.
quote
Date: 2000-12-06 10:33 am (UTC)From:"Love"?
"are satisfied with"?
Re: quote
Date: 2000-12-06 10:43 am (UTC)From:on loneliness
Date: 2000-12-06 02:47 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)Heres the problem. You are the person you are alone with, there is only one thing you, right? He was talking about yourself I take it, not someone else you are alone with.
We somehow divide ourselves up and say love ourselves. I love myself, what? Who is ths person doing the loving and who is recieving it?
This is not a trick question this is a source of the problem methinks. What is this entity that divides the self? Is there a core "me" doing this, and what is this me made of?
The soul some would say.
Now, so far we didnt want any advice on how to overcome this sense of loneliness, we want to find out what it is. We started by saying, lets observe ourselves during the day and watch the nature of our thought process.
What the devil does our thought process have to do with loneliness?
I'm suggesting here that there is an activity we engage in that gives us a sense of security. We have this constant soliloquy during the day and night and it makes us feel safe, we are here alive present. If were not thinking endlessly we're singing to ourselves hehe.
Okay all fine so far. Everyone see that? This is a fact right? Anyone present not doing that hehe.
So the next logical question is why. What is the underlying factor?
I want to let that hang in the air for a moment, and say this.
If we chatter to give ourselves a sense of, being there, and feeling secure, what else is happening?
There is more than just chatter. We also have an image of ourselves and it usually is a nice one. And someone comes by and pokes fun at us and we feel hurt.
Someone I love and depend on just insulted me, and it hurt. I pull away from them, and the fighting begins. We have lots of opinions about ourselves and someone just stuck a pin in my lovely image. And I depend on them, to agree with me etc... Flatter me you know?
We said at the begining of this dialogue that to understand loneliness we have to understand the whole of consciousness. Everything is interrelated, right?
All day long I chatter to myself defining myself reinforcing myself, and it Isolates me from others, right? I mean you build a wall and I'm here and you are over there, we are isolated right? My self is this wall, and we just created the factor of loneliness, and we are all doing it.
This is awesome lets continue it plz
Re: on loneliness
Date: 2000-12-06 04:35 pm (UTC)From:"If we chatter to give ourselves a sense of, being there, and feeling secure..."
No, you missed my point. You're assuming we chatter to a purpose. Let's come to an agreement on why the chatter is taking place, before we discuss why we say what it is that we say to ourselves. Do you disagree that we carry on this internal talking because we have no choice?
What we say to ourselves is a whole separate discussion, here.
Re: on loneliness
Date: 2000-12-06 04:58 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)My question is, why do we chatter, throughout the day, where that chatter is nonessential? Or, apparently nonsessential.
I don't want to submit at this point that "we have no choice". The function of the brain is different that other organs, it's behavior is not set in stone, and changes down throught the ages.
If I conclude that this chatter is unavoidable then it may stop the inquiry you see.
And right now it doesnt matter. I want to see what the effects are, of this. And second, what underlying factors are involved. By that I mean, is it possible to see first hand why we chatter. Is it the nature of the brain, or is there more to it than that?
We as humans can so deceive ourselves. All over the world there are different beliefs, opinions, idealogies, they all can't be right. Two people have a hard time agreeing on anything. Seeing that the human brain can deceive itself, I have to allow that it's function is not always normal.
We will have to go to the next step here, and review the nature of thinking itself. But wasn't sure we were ready yet.
the nature of thoughts
Date: 2000-12-06 09:26 pm (UTC)From:We tell ourselves what we are seeing.
We interpret those things.
We decide on our actions.
We imagine things.
That's only a few, and i'm not sure I have them divided up correcctly, or distilled entirely.
Help, people!
Re: the nature of thoughts
Date: 2000-12-07 05:09 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)Each of us have a slightly different substance, or content, but they exist for all of us, right?
Lets say there is this current of thoughts streaming by, constantly. The nature of these thoughts vary with circumstance, but the stream continues.
I was on my way to work today, considering this subject we are on. Was looking at the next logical sequence in this discussion and putting it into some cohesive framework. Tossing out ideas etc... While doing this I was watching the whole process of my thinking, and I asked the question, why am I doing this on LJ? What are my motives? Posing this question I felt a certain twinge. I saw part of it was to impress. Part was the love of inquiry, the love to unravel this. Part was the need to see all of us be free awesome human beings that we are capable of. But what struck me was the impress thingy, this made me perk up.
Does dadnerd want to impress someone with this? I twinged because I saw some truth in that. Then I watched me twinging and thought ah ha! Dad has this image that he is somewhat free of this immature ego thing, and he pulls back some when the fact exposes itself. This was WAY more important than anything I was looking at you see, the Truth!
I wanted to say this before we go on here, that observing ourselves in real life, can reveal the unexpected. We have to have the stomach for it. You don't necessarily have to tell everyone like I just did however, hehe.
But just wanted to say we have to look at every twinge that comes up, it is so revealing you know?
the heart of the matter
Actually, we're trying to find out what causes this lonliness, and then maybe we can decide whether we have the right to feel lonely.
Thanks for your input. That is all very valid. Dadnerd likes to go in order :-), but I don't want to miss anything, so please, throw in whatever you've got that's relevant.
by coincidence
Date: 2000-12-06 05:41 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)Yeah we are kinda pile driving this subject, you know, going to the heart of the matter.
But there is no direction here, this affects everyone, one way or the other. True I feel like we're slowly going down some stairs, taking one step at a time. And we are all huddled together doing this. There's a demon down there hahaha. So we'd better stick together. All in fun, but enormously importanat at the same time.
I think we all know we can avoid loneliness by staying busy, to some extent. Lots of techniques out there to avoid this. But there it is, lurking waiting, and it seems like a lot of energy avoiding it.
So really no particular order here, right? All in fun, but serious too. I did want to take it slowly and go over every leaf, hear every remark. And someone out there say, "you all are too crazy".
Re: by coincidence
Date: 2000-12-06 08:29 pm (UTC)From:Re: by coincidence
Date: 2000-12-06 09:29 pm (UTC)From:Re: by coincidence
Date: 2000-12-06 09:42 pm (UTC)From:no tangent
Date: 2000-12-06 10:07 pm (UTC)From:busy
Date: 2000-12-07 04:46 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)As we said the subject is complex right? Humans have mutliple reasons behind their actions.
You may consider how you got yourself in this position, what led up to it, what maintains it. That's for you to decide whether it interests you are not.
I think here we are going to the fundamental cause of this whole thing. See if it lies deep within us or are we just victims of circumstance.
Any input from you is valued highly, I think we all agree on that. Your a practical person living and surviving in the real world, so we need to hear from ya.
Oh by the way, observing yourself during the day is just what were talking about. Thats where the real stuff is, all the action. If we don't look at our lives in the real situation we are in where else can we look?
reiteration
Date: 2000-12-07 07:07 pm (UTC)From:You're out of order -)
Date: 2000-12-07 09:07 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)But as the subject is large, there will be a tendency to wander. And that is good too.
Maybe I should lay out where I'm going in my mind. We can fill in the details, or change course completely if necessary.
Heres what Im exploring in a nutshell
The symptoms are loneliness, a sense of isolation, emptiness. Most experience this sometime in their lives. Most work it out and avoid it, but not entirely successfully.
Maybe this constant mental rambling all day, is our brain's attempt to not be empty, alone, afraid.
I think, therefore I am, right? or is that right?
I wanted to explore the nature of thought. This is the medium by which we ramble and chatter all day.
Thought born of memory is knowledge, old, of the past. Memory is always old information.
We may be indulging in this because it is safe. Memories define things with a certainty. It distills all the input of our lives and gives it direction and meaning.
We know for sure we chatter all day, but we're not sure why. How can this be? We build computers and send people in space, but we don't know for a certainty why we chatter. Strange. Why aren't there classes in schools for this?
Thinking is the media and I felt it was the next thing to explore. But I'm not sticking to it stubbornly, as this is group therapy, hehe.
I really need input, here. I don't care how we go about it. Hey, I'm drowning out here in a lake. I don't care if you toss me a nylon rope or hemp. Toss me a chain if ya think it'll work.
I'm not gonna quibble about the way you comb your hair either. Or the color of your clothes,I need help.